Our Target Wildcats.... 416 HSM, 416 HE, 375 HE, Cheytac, Barrett, etc..

hubel585

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For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 is


easier to get powders to work with, with less problems ..

As a lot of guys won't use the real slow
ball powders, and there are a bunch of
slow ball powders about 15 slower than
HBMG, as well as about 10 extruded.


Ed..

 
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hubel585

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So if you got to buy new barrel, build a target gun,


don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416


We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
And the brand Xs - Barrett, Cheytac, other wildcats.

As well as all kinds of 375 wildcats. the 375 Lethal,
the one Warners have done, Shawn has done, etc.,

I will be showing comparisons of brass so folks can
see why some cases hang. All my cases and research
is public domain, Ed
 
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hubel585

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CEB will be making LAZER line in .408Cal and .416Cal!


.408 will be available in 425gr, 450gr and 475gr


.416 will be available in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

I been only able to post short messages
or the site won't go to pages when I
do long messages. We here want to see the 2 mile shooting venue open up and take off, will do what we can to help...Ed
 
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hubel585

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First, I can't get around to do ELR shooting. I just do research,
and developement, put stuff together, shoot over a chrono out
the shop door. One thing I'd like some ELR guy to do would be to
do 416 with barrel like my big test barrel, that only cost 250 bucks,
to see if it has accuracy comparable to real costly ones,Ed
 

hubel585

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My bigger diameter, 34" long 416 test barrel, was 250 bucks,


from McGowen.....1-10 twist, 1- 5/8 inch diameter blank,

work for bullets, up to 425-450gr or so.

I got their barrel as they built great 585 barrels for us.

If decent accuracy maybe could get them to do 1 -8 twist..;Ed..
 
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hubel585

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Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..


I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.


And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..


And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..




thickthin.jpg
 

hubel585

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I use the basic pressure/velocity formula that is the basis for Quikload

that I have here on paper. Just run formula and chrono and if velocity

matches what the math says, then we know the assumed pressure

we put in the formula as we figured it out, is correct.

Others have used same thick based case and found same pressures with

Quikload and .cases were sticking.


Here is a drawing depicting the layoutof thick and thin sided cases,


like my 585/375/416 HE thin sides ones and the thick one.


And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions from the


heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there


shortening case life. There are others made that way including brand X.


The dotted line is what it should be. ..Ed


casedrawing.jpg
 

hubel585

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Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they stick also for the folks,
If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and don't spring back, the coefficient of
friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases
with normal amount of slant to the sides. Ed.
 

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Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they
stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and
don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.


Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned..5th one is present 585 HE]
and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added


allnyati.jpg



In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s......


Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from ...they had thin sides
and sharp transition, and then I tested these 20 years ago, and they would separate after -4-6 hot loads
as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders as a 585 will get 10 hot loads, and necked down to
416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.
 

hubel585

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Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base diameter up from Nyati.He said,
'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I
could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''


Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi.


Another just sent us, thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's 375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck over 45k psi.


Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more
speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be 4- 4.5 inches long..


. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter.


Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have
same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
just by grinding off sharp transition corner. Then sides would be perfect.., .


brandxthick.jpg
 
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hubel585

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Here is picture of thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex case, and our HE case,
The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
These thick sided 375s stuck when loaded over 44,000 psi....


brandv.jpg



Got guys asking and I'm doing it, to do my 416 HSM case for BMG actions, so leaving rim same,
as the original bmg rim, so will neck them, fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others.
Base a little bigger, Shoulder same diameter, same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..


The inside of case still has close to same shape and volumne within 3 % as the ones we slimmed down.
Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done..Ed
 

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Plan on 3 versions OF 416 HSM, one for actions one .750" bolt, one for .800-.850" bolt,
And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 ..


Here is 416 HSM guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock.
It has a .805" diameter bolt... Ed




mrcphhsm.jpg
 

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Say Ed, I really appreciate all the hard work you put into these cartridge designs and sharing your knowledge you have acquired thru the years...Thanks

Can you possibly mention some of those slower burn powders you have found and who we can purchase them from? Any of these powders slower than 20N29 ?

BTW-I believe at one time you mentioned that you were looking into an option of a shorter 3.6" case length for the HSM. I would think that it would be close to an ideal size for the 416. The case capacity would be around 15% greater than the Barrett.
 
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hubel585

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SLOWER powders are 20n29 surplus which is slower than 20n29 cannister,

and V V 14.5, V V 27n44, imr 7013, hercules hc27-30,

AND WC 876, 880, 884, 886, 890, 895 AND OTHERS ALL BALL...Ed
 

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A 3.62" case idea may do but it seems so far

when jump to slower surplus powders we have right now , that if

we shortened case with what we have, then there would be big velocity loss,

and next powders down RE50, HBMG , cannister 20n29,

still too fast in a shorter 3.62 version, with needed long range bullets. .

IE; WE need all the length for the big jump down in powder speed,

and little extra for single feed shouldn't matter. The length of

target bullets in the shorter 3.62"case, will give OAL still needing single feed in most guns.

BUT if you wanted a 3.62" case, I can do it but be extra setup investment for

barrel, reamers, dies, etc. paid back with cases,.Ed
 
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hubel585

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Here is sectioned 585 HE case in the middle, we first made from


another case, years ago before we had factory run of brass and


it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside corrner.


We could fire them many times without sides thinning..


First case is factory run of our 585 HE, 3rd is case that is too thick


of sides and sticks at high pressures..


goodone.jpg



Here is pic of our factory run cases necked down to 375 and fired 4 times


at high pressure on the right, with unfired case on the left. Our case is not


perfect but does work...Ed


he4times.jpg
 

hubel585

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I have found die combos here to make 3.62" 416 HSM cases,

so if any wants them , we got to get barrel and reamers to setup

to fireform, set up dies. Ed
 

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BTW - For those interested in the the 416 cal rifles. Lilja barrels can go down to a 10 twist and K&P Gun Co. can make any twist you want....
 

hubel585

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What kind of prices do they have..

A 1 in 10 will do for 470 gr according to twist figuring website,Ed
 

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What kind of prices do they have..

A 1 in 10 will do for 470 gr according to twist figuring website,Ed


The prices can range from around $500 to $800 depending on length, contour, type of steel and fluting.


I think that the twist figures might be off a little for the 416. Cutting Edge bullets recommends at least 11 twist even with the 525 grain bullets.
IMO - A 10 twist should be good for anything lighter than 500 grains but a 9 twist would be best for ELR, especially if those big mono bullets will be transitioning thru Mach.
 

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The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably would be best with 8 to 1,

and 500 gr 9 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Barrels I have now are 10 to 1..Ed
 

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The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably would be best with 8 to 1,

and 500 gr 9 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Barrels I have now are 10 to 1.

Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base

which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier bullets for ELR.

Have hole maybe 2/3 size of tail end of boat tail....Ed
 

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The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably would be best with 8 to 1,

and 500 gr 9 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Barrels I have now are 10 to 1.

Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base

which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier bullets for ELR.

Have hole maybe 2/3 size of tail end of boat tail....Ed



Yep.... Maybe something like this! :D
iu.jpg

I think one should be able to get away with the slower 10 twist. You have to remember that most of these matches are well above sea level and the density altitude during the summer is way up there....But I agree that a 8-9 twist would be ideal.
 
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The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably would be best with 8 to 1,

and 500 gr 9 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Barrels I have now are 10 to 1.

Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base

which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier bullets for ELR.

Have hole maybe 2/3 size of tail end of boat tail....Ed

How can drilling a hole to lighten the bullet let you run a slower twist? The length of the bullet has not been changed. all I would think you would get is a lighter higher bc bullet that still requires the same twist. You did not change the profile of the bullet, just the weight.


So to me the only thing you would be able to gain is more speed from the higher bc bullet , drilling the hole. The twist rate would not change. since the length and profile of the bullet was not changed.
 

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How can drilling a hole to lighten the bullet let you run a slower twist? The length of the bullet has not been changed. all I would think you would get is a lighter higher bc bullet that still requires the same twist. You did not change the profile of the bullet, just the weight.


So to me the only thing you would be able to gain is more speed from the higher bc bullet , drilling the hole. The twist rate would not change. since the length and profile of the bullet was not changed.

Your right! Good catch! ;) In fact you would need to increase the twist rate slightly because the decrease in mass would intern also decrease the gyroscopic effect. Also, the overall balance of the bullet is dependent on its shape and where the center of mass is located. Just drilling a hole in the back of an existing mono bullet would likely screw up the accuracy. The Lapua Bullex-n for the 50BMG does not have this problem as it was engineered to have the hole in the base right from the very start.
 
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NEMTHunter

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Your right! Good catch! ;) In fact you would need to increase the twist rate slightly because the decrease in mass would intern also decrease the gyroscopic effect. Also, the overall balance of the bullet is dependent on its shape and where the center of mass is located. Just drilling a hole in the back of an existing mono bullet would likely screw up the accuracy. The Lapua Bullex-n for the 50BMG does not have this problem as it was engineered to have the hole in the base right from the very start.

Another thing to, with lightening the bullet you would loose BC. Taking two bullets that have the exact same size and shape. Now vary the weight and the BC will change. Lets use the 215 hybrid from Berger. Its 215 grains with a G7 BC of .354. Now make it out of the same material as the flat line bullets. You will loose BC just by the weight loss even though they are identical in shape. Now if you would make the same bullets out of a heavier metal then Berger uses it will gain BC.

To me its fascinating how it all works together.
 

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Lightening the rear of bullet and putting same weight on the front, keeping same wt,

allows slower twist, whether it would be accurate have to test and see.

The 58 cal Minie bullet with big hole in the base only needs 48 to 1 or slower twist

where one of our 585 regular bullets needs 1 to 24 or so.

The hollow base moves the center of gravity close to or forward the center of pressure,

air pressure on the bullet, which makes bullet more stable for long range,

IE bullet is nose heavier relative to the center of pressure,Ed
 
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hubel585

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Jim Boatright research paper on Hyper-stabilization of Projectiles ...Ed
 

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Lightening the rear of bullet and putting same weight on the front, keeping same wt,

allows slower twist, whether it would be accurate have to test and see.

The 58 cal Minie bullet with big hole in the base only needs 48 to 1 or slower twist

where one of our 585 regular bullets needs 1 to 24 or so.

The hollow base moves the center of gravity close to or forward the center of pressure,

air pressure on the bullet, which makes bullet more stable for long range,

IE bullet is nose heavier relative to the center of pressure,Ed


The key is moving the mass forward while keeping the same overall weight. You would need to add a heavier material inside to compensate ...AKA... lead!

Also remember that the ELR bullets have to transition thru the transonic barrier. Bullets don't travel in a straight line relative to their trajectory.
The angle of attack (AOA) causes the shock wave to move unevenly along the top and bottom of the bullet and it can actually cause it to tumble.
The form factor or shape of the bullet and spinning it faster by using a quicker twist, helps the bullet transition better as the uneven shock wave travels down the body of the bullet. I have been told that this is why the preferred ELR bullet is the Cutting Edge Lazer instead of using their slightly better BC MTH bullet.

We don't have to worry about these things on a hunting bullet because the speed of the bullet is always well above Mach.
 
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hubel585

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Yes a super fast twist is ideal but hard to get and costly, and
takes more pressure to get speed.

If the bullet is nose heavy it should follow the trajectory path better.

Some are experimenting now..Ed

Tubb and others testing 338 bullets by Jim Boatright, bases drilled

Has designs for all up to 50 cal, just a gap fill to let folks use present barrel

not wanting to redo to super fast twist yet. Or waiting for right ones to get built

at decent price.Ed

PS..Jim has research papers on stabilization.
 

hubel585

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T HE 416 HSM WILL stay above mach past 2 1/4 miles, maybe more. Ed
 

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Yes a super fast twist is ideal but hard to get and costly, and
takes more pressure to get speed.

If the bullet is nose heavy it should follow the trajectory path better.

Some are experimenting now..Ed

Tubb and others testing 338 bullets by Jim Boatright, bases drilled

Has designs for all up to 50 cal, just a gap fill to let folks use present barrel

not wanting to redo to super fast twist yet. Or waiting for right ones to get built

at decent price.Ed

PS..Jim has research papers on stabilization.


Yes, I have read the research papers that Jim put out about hyper stabilization....good stuff!!

BTW - I have a 10 twist on order for a 416, so i'll have to make do for now. I am learning quickly that with ELR that sometimes it's not what you want but more of what you can get from a supplier. :p
 

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About 416 cal bullets............


The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably be best 8 to 1 twist , in 416 caliber bullet,
and 520 gr 9.5 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Some barrels I picked up are 10 to 1.......


Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base, might do better
long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier 550 gr bullets for ELR.
Making bullet nose heavier makes it more stable in flight, needing less spin,
like our hollow base 585 cal minie bullets only need 48 to 1 twist, or less
while out regular 585 bullets need about 24 to 1 to stabilise them..............


The winner of the King Of 2 Mile shoot last week was using 416 Barrett with a 1 to 10
twist, with a 500 gr CEB Lazer bullet, ...Robert Brantley, with Manners Stocks....


Paul Philips was third with a 416...


GOOD NEWS-- There is now an importer and seller of our 585 HE brass getting set up here,
in US, hopefully will be in stock, few weeks........ Home - Bertram Brass .. .. Caleb Hallett..


Have got another intermediate size action besides the Montana PH our guys working on,
to do speed testingwith. It is big long REM style action that can take our 416 HSM, ED
 

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Experimental intermediate size action with the Montana PH, for comparison.


It is an experimental action for our 416 HSM, to do our speed testing with


and get a better action than Cheytac size actions, for bigger case ELR use,


without going all way up to more expensive, huge actions.


It is big long round style action that can take our 416 HSM, almost


1.6" diameter action and .800" bolt, with locking lugs nearly as big as most


BMG actions.... ED






intermediates.jpg
 

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Here is picture of the bolt from the experimental action,


with our 416 HSM case in it. Note the amount of the


base size of locking lugs, the amount of area on the bolt...ED






interboltp.jpg
 

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We tested intermediate action with a 700HE barrel we had here.


Just temporary to test strength. 1000 gr over 3100..


Action worked fine.. Ed.
 

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Ed. How much H2O capacity does the 416 HSM have?

Thanks!
 

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How much H2O capacity does the 416 HSM have?

Thanks!

I believe the case capacity is around 317 - 320gr. Ed also has a shorter 3.62" version that is around 290 gr capacity,
 
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NEMTHunter

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Thanks. Thats great capacity! Neck it up to 50 cal and it should do better then the 50BMG
 

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Here is video of early water barrel test of our


12ga From Hell, from years ago.


Grandpa's First Shot - YouTube




Here is picture from that video..


Shot%203.jpg







Here is the intermediate size action for 416 HSM with test barrel, .Ed


intertargetp.jpg
 

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Got 416 HSM, 415 gr bullet, 3800,

plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action.. Ed.
 

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Here is picture of our 416HSM cases with screw in shellholders,


for Ammomaster, etc, and slip in shellholders for regular presses


Also have some for big LEE Classic and Smart Reloader presses..


A 378 WEA MAG in picture for comparison...




Second is stacks of 416 HSM, about a third fireformed


and the rest to be fireformed... So far total about 1700, Ed






hsmholders.jpg







workinghsm.jpg
 

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Bob Snapp, 90, the great Gun Craftsman, of


Clare, Michigan, passed away Jan 28th....


He was an esteemed member of the


American Custom Gunmakers Guild,


Being its president in 1992..He liked


working with Martini Cadet singleshot rifles.


We lost a great friend,,,Ed
 

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Bob Snapp, 90, the great Gun Craftsman, of


Clare, Michigan, passed away Jan 28th....


He was an esteemed member of the


American Custom Gunmakers Guild,


Being its president in 1992..He liked


working with Martini Cadet singleshot rifles.


We lost a great friend,,,Ed

So sorry to hear this ED. RIP Bob..........

Jeff
 

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It is possible rig up holders for many types setups.,


About shellholder supply for big cases,


RCBS and others make slip in holders for shotgun cases..


Here are various sizes........




16ga-- .810" rim,


20ga-- .760" rim,


24ga .725" rim,


28ga .680" rim....
 

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We fireform the 416 HSM with 65 gr of medium speed


surplus powder, with rest of case filled with farina


and grits mix, with a play dough plug in the neck.


It is loud, so we shoot it into big container through a barrel size


size hole, so the sound is muffled, so it doesn't deafen us..




It is great getting more companies making 416 caliber bullets,


long target and bore rider bullets. Ed..






....
 

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Wonder if a PTRD with 5 ft long barrel is stable enough


for ELR , rebarrel to 416 and use our 416 HSM, 500 gr bullet ....


.Here is up north guy using 585 HE in a PTRD with inserts,


Light load.....Inserts are in the shape of the 14.5mm case....




585HE - YouTube

 

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