Optimal Charge Weight "OCW" Load Work Up. By Ryan Furman

Willys

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2022
Messages
1,151
Reaction score
898
Points
113
I apologize if I misunderstood, but you don’t use a bushing to size the neck for turning. You should have a mandrel that is approx .0005 to .001 larger than the pilot that you size the inside of the neck so that it just slips over the turning pilot.

 

SteveGa

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2020
Messages
163
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Georgia
Willys,
No sir! You did not misunderstand. I don’t know what I am doing with this neck turning thing. Never done it before, so am trying to learn how. So I understand, you use a mandrel to size the neck. Got that, and will pick one up. What step in the process do you use the mandrel?
Right now, I pop the primers, clean pockets and flash holes, neck size with Redding bushing die, body size, clean with acetone, tumble, clean, trim, deburr, chamfer, prime, lube necks, powder, and seat, in that order.
Would you mind showing me where to put the mandrel step and neck turning in this process, please?
Sure appreciate your help!
Steve
 

SteveGa

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2020
Messages
163
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Georgia
Willys,
No sir! You did not misunderstand. I don’t know what I am doing with this neck turning thing. Never done it before, so am trying to learn how. So I understand, you use a mandrel to size the neck. Got that, and will pick one up. What step in the process do you use the mandrel?
Right now, I pop the primers, clean pockets and flash holes, neck size with Redding bushing die, body size, clean with acetone, tumble, clean, trim, deburr, chamfer, prime, lube necks, powder, and seat, in that order.
Would you mind showing me where to put the mandrel step and neck turning in this process, please?
Sure appreciate your help!
Steve
Sorry, I forgot the annealing between cleaning flash holes and neck sizing. I keep a process list on the bench, but do not have it with me.
 

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
5,021
Reaction score
5,965
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
Let's start another thread about neck turning to keep this one on topic.
 

SteveGa

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2020
Messages
163
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Georgia
Ryan, sorry! Just had so many questions. Will you tell me how to do that and I will gladly do it.
Thanks, Steve
 

Ladd

LRO Field Editor/Precision Hand loading Specialist
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
8,574
Reaction score
11,431
Points
113
Location
Utah
Ryan, sorry! Just had so many questions. Will you tell me how to do that and I will gladly do it.
Thanks, Steve
Quick and easy steps to starting a thread.
  1. Click on "Forums" at the top of the screen bringing up the Forums page.
  2. On the "Forums" page you will see, on the right side of the screen, a button to click on called "Post Thread..." there is an icon next to it that looks like a pencil writing on paper.
  3. After clicking on "Post Thread" a window will appear listing all the forums available.
  4. Pick the forum topic you want to start a thread in and click the name of the forum, in your case that might be "Precision Handloading" in the category called "LR Equipment & Handloading." Click on "Precision Handloading."
  5. The next window to appear is a form to fill out.
  6. Add what you want to call it where it says "Thread Title."
  7. Then below where is says "Discussion", write what you want to discuss or what you want to ask or seek help on, then click on "Post Thread" at the bottom and it will post.
If you are not sure what forum to start your thread in you can scroll through the categories.
  1. Click on "Forum" at the top of the "Home" screen.
  2. Scroll down through the categories and topics under each category and click on a topic.
  3. The next screen will be all the threads posted in the category under this topic. If you clicked on Precision Handloading under the category LR Equipment & Handloading, you will see 39 pages of threads on this topic.
  4. Read through some of these threads and if they seam to be on topic to what you want to discuss, this is probably the place to add your post.
  5. Go back to the screen that lists all the threads mentioned in #3 and you will see the same "Post Thread" button on the right side of the screen then follow 3-7 above.
 
Last edited:

SteveGa

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2020
Messages
163
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Georgia
Thanks, Ladd! Got it going in the Precision hand loading section, and already picked up some great advice. Sure appreciate your help.
Thanks, Steve
 

JarrettMW

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
70
Reaction score
7
Points
8
Did an OCW without seating depth on my 6.5 PRC 156gr bergers after this ladder test. I attached the ladder, and then the OCW. Let me know thoughts. 100 yards. N565
 

Attachments

  • IMG_8605.jpeg
    IMG_8605.jpeg
    900 KB · Views: 31
  • IMG_8624.jpeg
    IMG_8624.jpeg
    891.8 KB · Views: 29
  • IMG_8625.jpeg
    IMG_8625.jpeg
    777.5 KB · Views: 32

JarrettMW

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
70
Reaction score
7
Points
8
irgin vs Fire Formed.

All the brass I used for ladder testing was virgin brass. Now the brass I will be using for seating depth and OCW will be 1x fired. Is this going to cause issues for me? or don't stress it
 

Willys

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2022
Messages
1,151
Reaction score
898
Points
113
You should be +- 1/2 grain with fireformed vs virgin IMO.
 

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
5,021
Reaction score
5,965
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
I have seen the new to once fired brass relationship run the gamut. I have seen no change. I have seen(most often in my case) the need to readjust the powder charge down to stay in the same velocity. I have seen where load development had to be started over.
 

SteveGa

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2020
Messages
163
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Georgia
Gentlemen,
I have not had a chance to post recently, with work and continued testing. Have now completed two full sets of charge weights and seating depth tests. With the results, the ranges are becoming pretty clear, it would seem to me, but I wanted to post results, and get your input on how to continue.

Without adding pics of targets, I will just give results, and ask for next steps:
1) Pressure test identified an optimal charge weight range of 75 - 77.5 grns. of H1000 in 300 WM. (CCI Mag. primers, Nosler cases, 212 grn. ELDX bullets) Using the mid range of 76.3 grains, I began the seating depth test.
2) First seating depth test range was from 10-40 off in 0.010 increments. 40 off was best with a group of 0.512 and an ES of 3.
3) On Ryan and Ladd's suggestion, I extended the seating depth range to 60 off, and ran the range from 35 to 60 off in .005 increments. 40 - 45 off was the node, with groups of 0.539 and 0.603 respectively being best in range. ES was 15 and 9 for the two best.
4) Keeping 40 off as the temporary seating depth, I began the first full charge weight test, running .03 grn. increments on either side of the node of 76.3. Range was 75.4 - 77.2. Best range was 76 - 76.6, with group size running from 0.617 - 0.632. ES ran from 6 at 76 grn. to 28 at 76.6.
5) Trying to tighten it up, I ran another charge weight test in .02 grain increments, and once again, the best range was 76 - 76.6, with group size ranging from .4415 at 76, .779 at 76.2, 1.102 at 76.4, and .2635 at 76.6. ES range was 9 at 76, 25 at 76.2, 8 at 76.4 and 23 at 76.6.

My question is where to go from here. Should I take the middle of the charge weight node, 76.3 and do another seating depth test in .001 increments from 40-45 off, identify the node, then come back with a final charge weight test? Or, should I do another charge weight test on the 76-76.6 range, at .01 grain increments first, decide on the node, then finalize seating depth?

Would certainly appreciate your input. Thanks, Steve
 

SteveGa

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2020
Messages
163
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Georgia
Gentlemen,
Just so I understand, in the OCW method of load development, we alternate seating depth and charge weight tests back and forth, after the original pressure test, until the data shows the clear node for both. Correct? Just trying to fully understand the complete process so I do not repeat steps.
Thanks, Steve
 

Willys

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2022
Messages
1,151
Reaction score
898
Points
113
Yes, some prefer seating depth first some charge weight. Most common is pressure test for max using one shot per charge, then ladder test per charge looking for a similar drop for multiple charges, then ocw around the best node, then seating depth test at optimum charge. Continue until you find smallest group or until barrel worn out, repeat.
 
Last edited:

SteveGa

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2020
Messages
163
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Georgia
Thanks, Willys.
I went back again and watched the original video, as I thought I could have payed too much attention to group size and ES, and not enough attention to point of impact. After watching the video again and taking more notes, I pulled the targets and went through the data again. In this case at least, the two aligned, and impact consistencies followed the best group size. I have one more round of charge weight tests to shoot, and one more round of seating depth tests planned, and that will be it.
Sure appreciate your and everyone else's help.
Thanks, Steve
 

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
5,021
Reaction score
5,965
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
The biggest point of a true long range ladder or a 100 yard OCW is to find a consistent point of impact. The second point is to do so with the fewest rounds absolutely necessary. Powder charge dictates the node. I don't care how small or big the group changes with a seating depth change it is still just tweaking the load.
 

vhr1079

New member
Joined
Jan 19, 2023
Messages
10
Reaction score
2
Points
3
I've been following this thread for a while and just ran through the first two steps of the process:
  • 300 Win Mag, 24" bbl
  • 215 Berger, H1000, Fed 215, ADG Virgin Brass, seated .010" OTL
IMG_3676.jpg

I settled on 75.5gr as my initial powder charge. Next, I loaded at 10, 20, 30, and 40 off the lands.

IMG_3683.jpg
I'm trying to remove emotion from this like stated in the video. It appears .010" is the depth to do the OCW test with. Right?

I'm working with virgin ADG brass - I'll report back on how it responds once its fire formed. Have not chronograhped yet.
 

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
5,021
Reaction score
5,965
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
I've been following this thread for a while and just ran through the first two steps of the process:
  • 300 Win Mag, 24" bbl
  • 215 Berger, H1000, Fed 215, ADG Virgin Brass, seated .010" OTL
View attachment 15142

I settled on 75.5gr as my initial powder charge. Next, I loaded at 10, 20, 30, and 40 off the lands.

View attachment 15143
I'm trying to remove emotion from this like stated in the video. It appears .010" is the depth to do the OCW test with. Right?

I'm working with virgin ADG brass - I'll report back on how it responds once its fire formed. Have not chronograhped yet.
I would shoot .035 and .045 off.
 

Willys

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2022
Messages
1,151
Reaction score
898
Points
113
Without velocity tough to tell but lets say at .035 and .040 your top hole is slower than lower holes - could line up and be bugholes at 600-1000 !
 

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
5,021
Reaction score
5,965
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
Velocity plays no role in accurate load devolvement period. I really wish people would stop the velocity train. If you increase powder charge the average velocity will increase. It's simple physics.
 

MECA

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2023
Messages
511
Reaction score
487
Points
63
I GET THE "BRASS MAY OR MAY NOT " AFFECT THE OUTCOME, BUT I JUST DON'T WORK UP LOADS WITH UNFIRED BRASS!
FIREFORM IT.
DEVELOPE SERIOUS AMMO!
KILL STUFF!
 

vhr1079

New member
Joined
Jan 19, 2023
Messages
10
Reaction score
2
Points
3
I would shoot .035 and .045 off.
It didn't like that. Should I proceed to OCW with one of the first 4 seating depths then come back and tune after that? Or try more depths?

IMG_3686.jpg
 

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
5,021
Reaction score
5,965
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
Yes I would do an OCW from 74.7-76.8 at .010 off.
 

Willys

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2022
Messages
1,151
Reaction score
898
Points
113
Velocity plays no role in accurate load devolvement period. I really wish people would stop the velocity train. If you increase powder charge the average velocity will increase.
It didn't like that. Should I proceed to OCW with one of the first 4 seating depths then come back and tune after that? Or try more depths?

View attachment 15154
What do you mean ? Whats different here than previous seating test? Just one load of powder?
 

vhr1079

New member
Joined
Jan 19, 2023
Messages
10
Reaction score
2
Points
3
What do you mean ? Whats different here than previous seating test? Just one load of powder?
@Willys Only the seating depth is different. First 4 groups were 10, 20, 30, 40 off. Group 5 and 6 are 35 and 45 off. All were shot at 75.5gr
 

Willys

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2022
Messages
1,151
Reaction score
898
Points
113
Got it, agree with furman, just use .010 and run some different charges there, further distsnce the better.
 

JarrettMW

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
70
Reaction score
7
Points
8
seating depth test after my recent ladder work.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_8965.jpeg
    IMG_8965.jpeg
    482.1 KB · Views: 44
  • IMG_8964.jpeg
    IMG_8964.jpeg
    997.5 KB · Views: 48
  • IMG_8963.jpeg
    IMG_8963.jpeg
    938.9 KB · Views: 46

JarrettMW

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
70
Reaction score
7
Points
8
H1000 none look great but .030 and 0.40 both had bullets impact touching.

RL 26 had .030 and .040 look good. 0.050 I honestly have no idea where the 3rd shot is. Maybe it double up a hole but like there was no impact on my paper or wood boards that indicate where that 3rd bullet went which makes me think it double up perfectly. But honestly can’t say. But even then .030 looks good to start

N570 produced all .75moa group with .030 being the best at .56moa. So leaning towards full length at 0.010 off lands probably
 

J2shooter

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
1,765
Reaction score
2,310
Points
113
RL26 @.050 has one in the same hole. I'd shoot this again for a couple groups to see how it does. Along with N570 @.050

Edit :

I'd be between RL26 and N570 @.050. maybe whichever I had the most of.
 

JarrettMW

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
70
Reaction score
7
Points
8
RL26 @.050 has one in the same hole. I'd shoot this again for a couple groups to see how it does. Along with N570 @.050

Edit :

I'd be between RL26 and N570 @.050. maybe whichever I had the most of.
Right. I got 3lbs each.

I’d like to then fine down my powder drips. I did initial .5 grain jumps. Maybe fine tune them around there also?
 

J2shooter

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
1,765
Reaction score
2,310
Points
113
There's a good chance your N570 @.050 group is the same size or smaller maybe that the .030 . There's a weird tear in the paper on the .050 group that's making it look bigger..... that's not poi though.

Anyway. It's hard to track everything that happens between members in these threads with their testing.
But sure, if you intend to continue testing with OCW then I'd say run it at .3 grain increments at .050 off with 26 or 570.
I would start it a little below where this last test was shot, run through this charge weight and up to what you've determined to be a working max. Pay attention to rounds on the the barrel and potential carbon build up. That has the potential to hose everything. Clean it well if it needs it (with n570 it probably needs cleaning)
And load up 10 foulers to get the barrel ready for the next test.


Honestly though, if you have access to 600 or more yards I'd really prefer to just run the long range ladder in the same fashion.
 

JarrettMW

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
70
Reaction score
7
Points
8
There's a good chance your N570 @.050 group is the same size or smaller maybe that the .030 . There's a weird tear in the paper on the .050 group that's making it look bigger..... that's not poi though.

Anyway. It's hard to track everything that happens between members in these threads with their testing.
But sure, if you intend to continue testing with OCW then I'd say run it at .3 grain increments at .050 off with 26 or 570.
I would start it a little below where this last test was shot, run through this charge weight and up to what you've determined to be a working max. Pay attention to rounds on the the barrel and potential carbon build up. That has the potential to hose everything. Clean it well if it needs it (with n570 it probably needs cleaning)
And load up 10 foulers to get the barrel ready for the next test.


Honestly though, if you have access to 600 or more yards I'd really prefer to just run the long range ladder in the same fashion.
Ya I see what you’re saying. That’s 2 bullet inmpact but tore on accident
 

Willys

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2022
Messages
1,151
Reaction score
898
Points
113
I’d set it a .030 scross all powders, pick 2 or 3 and fine tune in .03 gr increments.

I admire the perseverance in testing 3 powders at once.
 

JarrettMW

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
70
Reaction score
7
Points
8
I’d set it a .030 scross all powders, pick 2 or 3 and fine tune in .03 gr increments.

I admire the perseverance in testing 3 powders at once.
Ya I mean. I’ve got the powders and bullets but sometimes I can’t find the powders I want to shoot so I really want to find 2-3 powders choice and have them dialed in so if for some reason I can’t find powders then I can shoot what I got.
 

JarrettMW

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
70
Reaction score
7
Points
8
RL26 @.050 has one in the same hole. I'd shoot this again for a couple groups to see how it does. Along with N570 @.050

Edit :

I'd be between RL26 and N570 @.050. maybe whichever I had the most of.
Do you think or can you tell in that RL26 which one has the 2 bullet in it. I cant seem to tell which one. But there is no way I missed the paper. The paper had 10" all directions. No way I flung a 3rd bullet 10" in any direction ya know. But that's a perfect hole in a hole.
 

J2shooter

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
1,765
Reaction score
2,310
Points
113
Do you think or can you tell in that RL26 which one has the 2 bullet in it. I cant seem to tell which one. But there is no way I missed the paper. The paper had 10" all directions. No way I flung a 3rd bullet 10" in any direction ya know. But that's a perfect hole in a hole.
I believe it's in the top hole. It's hard to tell but it just looks the slightest bit irregular compared to the bottom hole. It's in one of those holes though for sure.
 

JarrettMW

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
70
Reaction score
7
Points
8
I believe it's in the top hole. It's hard to tell but it just looks the slightest bit irregular compared to the bottom hole. It's in one of those holes though for sure.
Ya i wasn't totally sure so I loaded a bunch at .030 off to be safe to do a fine tune of the OCW. Guess i could shoot those see what shoots best and then try .050 off
 

JarrettMW

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
70
Reaction score
7
Points
8
Ya i wasn't totally sure so I loaded a bunch at .030 off to be safe to do a fine tune of the OCW. Guess i could shoot those see what shoots best and then try .050 off
Or pull them and then reseat
 

JarrettMW

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
70
Reaction score
7
Points
8
Did my final OCW of RL26 and N570.

RL26 was around 3020fps
N570 was around 2850fps

300prc
205 Bergers
Lapua brass
22” Seekins

.025 off lands RL26
.030 off lands N570

Thoughts?
 

Attachments

  • IMG_9302.jpeg
    IMG_9302.jpeg
    263.6 KB · Views: 44
  • IMG_9301.jpeg
    IMG_9301.jpeg
    436.4 KB · Views: 44

RBanta66

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 3, 2020
Messages
1,021
Reaction score
1,363
Points
113
Location
Virginia,
If you have the availability of at least 600yds or longer it's easier to separate the flukes, For RL26 I'd shoot 80.4, 80.7, 81.0 but at a minimum 600yds. For N570 I'd shoot 81.6, 81.9 , 82.1. the reason for this is your Point of impact was consistent for those charges. Remember this for long range work that 100yd group can fall apart at distance that's why we shoot and verify at longer ranges starting at 600yds or further if available. Your almost there just need to stretch out those groups as they will then separate them selves.
 

6.5wsm

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2022
Messages
57
Reaction score
47
Points
18
Good afternoon I am looking for some thoughts just. Did some load work. On a 6.5 wsm trying to get a good option for substituting. Retumbo. Since it’s not available. I also tweaked my current load for long range The ocw target is charge weight of new powder options. The other is 400 yd. Group with the same. Loads I have the access to shoot. Out to a 700 & 1000. Ran out of time on this trip Should I try these at 7 & 1000 Or does anyone have suggestions for changing up the loads

Ps. This was shot off LRO. Rear bag & front bag. On a bench. All at 12 x. By my 19y old son it’s the rifle he’s going to take on an antelope. Hunt this. Fall. Getting him ready for the hunt
 

Attachments

  • IMG_6871.jpeg
    IMG_6871.jpeg
    95.5 KB · Views: 34
  • IMG_6873.jpeg
    IMG_6873.jpeg
    118.2 KB · Views: 33

Spreedizzle

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2019
Messages
2,190
Reaction score
2,879
Points
113
Location
Cleveland Ohio
Fierce Rival 300PRC with ADG brass, 215M, 215 Berger and H1000. I’m looking at both 78 and 79.5 for seating depth testing. Thoughts?
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1806.jpeg
    IMG_1806.jpeg
    439.8 KB · Views: 39

Rjk300

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2020
Messages
959
Reaction score
930
Points
93
Location
NE, Ohio
I think these 100 yard work ups are really hard to use to tell what will work 400+ yards. I see what your seeing and I’d agree but the 2 very close and 1 that seems to open it up makes me wonder if you should try another powder. Is there any consistency to the one that opens the group up? Meaning first shot or last or is it just random?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Spreedizzle

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2019
Messages
2,190
Reaction score
2,879
Points
113
Location
Cleveland Ohio
I think these 100 yard work ups are really hard to use to tell what will work 400+ yards. I see what your seeing and I’d agree but the 2 very close and 1 that seems to open it up makes me wonder if you should try another powder. Is there any consistency to the one that opens the group up? Meaning first shot or last or is it just random?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I honestly don’t recall which shot was the outlier in those strings
 

FURMAN

LRO Rifle and Gear Review Editor
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
5,021
Reaction score
5,965
Points
113
Location
Emporia Ks
Fierce Rival 300PRC with ADG brass, 215M, 215 Berger and H1000. I’m looking at both 78 and 79.5 for seating depth testing. Thoughts?
I would do it at 78. Do you have chrono data?
 

Forum Sponsors

Top