7mm Rem Mag Berger 190 gr LRHT N565 and H1000

[Ladd]

I decided to start this thread in case anyone is interested in the Berger 190 gr LRHT with Vihtavuori N565 and H1000. Before going any further, you should note that the chamber in my Christensen Arms Ridgeline 7mm is no longer SAAMI spec. I followed Ryan's video and thread on LRO. See below.

How to Increase Your Rifle Throat Length With a Chamber Uni Throating Reamer

Here is where we can discuss and ask questions about the how to video on Increasing Your Rifle Throat Length With a Chamber Uni Throating Reamer by Ryan Furman. To watch this how to video GO HERE

www.longrangeonly.com

This thread will hopefully detail load development for this bullet and these two powders from start to finish. Follow along. Comment or question whatever.

 

[Ladd]

From my calculations and measurements, I lengthened the throat 0.141-inches to where the 190 gr LRHT and the 180 gr Berger VLD fit with the boat tail junction lining up just in front of where the shoulder meets the case neck. The bullets are touching the lands at this point. I wanted to leave some room to test bullet seating in case they liked it away from the lands.

 

[Ladd]

I want to see what the 190 gr Berger LRHT will do in my rifle but making sure the Berger 180 gr VLD works too was important. The Berger 168 gr VLD has been a great bullet in this rifle and others so I'm confident the VLD would be a good bullet. I'm a bit more excited to see if the 190 gr works before going to the other so that's what I'll concentrate on here.

I loaded up some test rounds to check for pressure and I just got back from shooting today. Before I get into that I needed to sight in the NXS and foul the barrel so I used HSM 168 gr Berger VLD factory loads. The first shot below the dot is my first shot after adjusting the scope by looking down the barrel. After adjusting the scope I shot two more.

 

[Ladd]

I tested H1000 first and made loads from 67.0 gr to 72.5 gr in 0.5 gr increments with the 190 gr LRHT at 0.005" off the lands. I was able get to 69.0 gr @ 3022 fps until I could see the first smallest of faint ejector marks. I fired three more until stopping at 70.5 gr with a slight change in bolt lift but without a swipe. The muzzle velocity at 70.5 gr H1000 was 3092 fps. The two prior rounds showed slight ejector marks and each measured the same at 3037 fps.

Next up was N565. It has done so well in my first 6.5 PRC I decided to give it a try. I started low at 60.0 gr and loaded rounds up to 65.5 gr in 0.5 gr increments. The bullet seating was left at 0.005" OL. I made it through all 12 rounds without any pressure signs so I'll need to load up a few more and continue but the last load at 65.5 gr measured 2916 fps. It will be interesting to see where pressure starts and where I stop. I think it will reach 3000 fps but we'll see.

What stands out to me right off the bat is the grouping of the two. On the left are the (8) rounds with H1000, on the right are the (12) rounds with N565 with the first (4) rounds with N565 all touching.

 

[OSOK - Crash]

Off subject, but curious on the bipod you're using?

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[Ladd]

Off subject, but curious on the bipod you're using?

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That’s a Modular Evolution Bipod with the rubber feet. I have a few from the Long Range Only store. Sounds like they may not be offered anymore? Too bad. I really like them.


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[OSOK - Crash]

That’s a Modular Evolution Bipod with the rubber feet. I have a few from the Long Range Only store. Sounds like they may not be offered anymore? Too bad. I really like them.


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Gotcha. I thought that's what it looked like. It looks like I may end up going with an Atlas at this point. Still researching though. Thanks for the reply!

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[Ladd]

Gotcha. I thought that's what it looked like. It looks like I may end up going with an Atlas at this point. Still researching though. Thanks for the reply!

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Anytime. The picture isn’t very sharp. My iPhone is getting worse. Should have a new one today so I can redo those pics.

If you’re looking. I have three evos. I don’t know why. I could part with one. I only have the spiked feet for them though. The other two are an inch or two longer I think, I’d have to measure.


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[OSOK - Crash]

Anytime. The picture isn’t very sharp. My iPhone is getting worse. Should have a new one today so I can redo those pics.

If you’re looking. I have three evos. I don’t know why. I could part with one. I only have the spiked feet for them though. The other two are an inch or two longer I think, I’d have to measure.


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I will keep this in mind for sure!

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[Ladd]

I finished the pressure testing today with N565. I made it up to 69.5 gr at 3080 fps before stopping. (20) total rounds N565 from 60 gr to 69.5 gr. So, (8) H1000 loads on the left, (20) N565 loads on the right.

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[Ladd]

Here’s the data to go with the pressure testing.

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[Rjk300]

That’s a pretty big jump from 70 to 70.5 of h1000 i am guessing it’s probably close to pressure.I would’ve thought you would’ve seen at least one node that was a little flatter toward the top end of the n565. Not that you need one for it to shoot lights out and it seems to be liking the n565.


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[Ladd]

That’s a pretty big jump from 70 to 70.5 of h1000 i am guessing it’s probably close to pressure.I would’ve thought you would’ve seen at least one node that was a little flatter toward the top end of the n565. Not that you need one for it to shoot lights out and it seems to be liking the n565.


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You're right. The nodes aren't clear. I was looking for pressure first so I know my limits. There wasn't any real data with these powders that I could find for the 190 gr LRHT with an extended 7mm Rem Mag throat like this rifle has now. I went in 0.5 gr steps to speed this up. I would typically do testing in 0.3 gr incremental charges to help the velocity nodes stand out more. I will either move to OCW or Ladder testing, I haven't decided, but I have an idea where to start now.

 

[FURMAN]

I have NEVER seen a reliable and repeatable "velocity" test such as people look for with the "Satterlee" method. If you are not shooting paper you are wasting time, components, and barrel life. Once in a while you may get "lucky" and see a flat spot but in my testing it rarely repeats. If you have already tested a given bullet and know the seating depth your barrel prefers for said bullet you are more likely to see a usable flat spot in velocity tests.

Ladd, did you happen to mark the N565 shots? It looks like it may be the powder your setup prefers.

 

[Ladd]

I have NEVER seen a reliable and repeatable "velocity" test such as people look for with the "Satterlee" method. If you are not shooting paper you are wasting time, components, and barrel life. Once in a while you may get "lucky" and see a flat spot but in my testing it rarely repeats. If you have already tested a given bullet and know the seating depth your barrel prefers for said bullet you are more likely to see a usable flat spot in velocity tests.

Ladd, did you happen to mark the N565 shots? It looks like it may be the powder your setup prefers.

I didn't figure it was worth marking at only 100 yards, I was thinking of trying a ladder at 1000 yards. But the last 5-6 shots w/ N565 are pretty much that big hole surrounded by the others. The first four shots are the little cluster closest to the the orange zero.

 

[Rjk300]

Yes there are a couple that stand out that I think you will be using so I’ll be following along to see what it likes. My options are just an educated guess because my last to ladders were done with the magneto on and I seen where the best loads came from with the velocity data. So I am just trying to see if I can narrow the ladder down a few shot for future load developments or not.


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[Ladd]

I will be shooting more but I wanted to be cautious since I didn't know where pressure would be. Notice I started the N565 pretty low. I based this off what Vihtavuori has on their app but for a SAAMI chamber, and 24" barrel, and went a little lower because I'm using ADG brass. I think VV is very conservative in their data. The H1000 went quicker, I had better data there.

 

[Ladd]

I have NEVER seen a reliable and repeatable "velocity" test such as people look for with the "Satterlee" method. If you are not shooting paper you are wasting time, components, and barrel life. Once in a while you may get "lucky" and see a flat spot but in my testing it rarely repeats. If you have already tested a given bullet and know the seating depth your barrel prefers for said bullet you are more likely to see a usable flat spot in velocity tests.

Ladd, did you happen to mark the N565 shots? It looks like it may be the powder your setup prefers.

I know why you were asking if I marked the shots after watching your OCW video again, just now, paying more attention to the pressure testing comments. At the time I wasn't looking for grouping but in the future I will. That tis good information.

 

[Ladd]

Just got back from shooting an OCW with N565 and H1000. I took my time using the Barrel Cooler trying to keep the conditions consistent. Interesting results.

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[Ladd]

Looks like I need to reshoot the two and add 68.0 gr H1000 which was my sighter/fouler load.

It was a great day for shooting. Living in the desert blows 4-5 months of the year but the other 7-8 months sure makes up for it.


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[Rjk300]

I was thinking +/- 69.5 for the h1000 and +/- 68.5 for n565 when I saw your velocities in post #11. Which ones are you going to revisit?


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[FURMAN]

I would do seating depth testing at 68.9 H1000 or 68.2 N565.

 

[Ladd]

I was thinking +/- 69.5 for the h1000 and +/- 68.5 for n565 when I saw your velocities in post #11. Which ones are you going to revisit?


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I’m going to re shoot 67.9 gr N565, 68.9 gr H1000 to double check if those weren’t the middle. Then add 68.0 gr H1000 to see if it makes 68.3 fall in the middle.

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[Ladd]

I would do seating depth testing at 68.9 H1000 or 68.2 N565.

Roger that.


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[Ladd]

Finished shooting the seating depth loads seated from 0.015”-.035” OL in 0.010” increments. Shot the H1000 loads last Saturday and just shot the N565 loads today.

Looks like the rifle likes 68.2 gr N565 at 0.015” OL which gave me a 0.14 moa 3-shot group with 2.4 SD, 5 ES and 3025 fps ave MV. At 0.005” OL this load gave me 1.0 SD, 2 ES, 3029 fps ave MV with a 0.4 moa 3-shot group.

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[Ladd]

The H1000 loads shot Saturday were a little too close to pressure with a click at the top of the bolt throw. So it needs to come down from 68.9 gr. I did load up a 68.0 gr load at 0.005” OL to test and it grouped well and without a click at the top of the bolt throw. I can either explore around here or run with the N565 load. I think I’ll run with the following load and call it good at 100 yards and with OCW.

7mm 190 gr LRHT
68.2 gr N565
0.015” OL
3025 fps ave MV
2.4 SD, 5 ES (3-shots)


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[shawnb]

Hey Ladd, what did you oal (base to tip) end up at with the 180s and 190s?

 

[Ladd]

Hey Ladd, what did you oal (base to tip) end up at with the 180s and 190s?

I'll check in my logbook when I get home tonight. I'll let you know.

 

[Ladd]

Hey Ladd, what did you oal (base to tip) end up at with the 180s and 190s?

Here’s a pic of my 7mm RM logbook. Let me know if you have any questions.

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[Airborneescouter]

Here’s a pic of my 7mm RM logbook. Let me know if you have any questions.

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I know this is an older thread but I'm very intrigued. I have a tikka I went a little too deep on in 300 wm and can load up to a COAL of a hair over 3.6" and feel like rechambering to a 7 mag could be the right move considering the BC of the 190 or the eol 195s. I see you're loading to a 3.64" coal - are you close to compressing your powder charge at that length? Just wondering if I can overcome the limitations I'm working within by moving down to the 7 mag - I couldn't load as long as you but if I can stay in that 3.55-3.58 range I'd feel really good about rebarreling

 

[Ladd]

My load is not a compressed load with the extended throat using Berger 190 gr LRHTs. You mean re-barrel your Tikka from a 300 win mag to a 7mm rem mag don't you? You won't be able to rechamber to a 7mm rem mag.

 

[Airborneescouter]

Correct, I know I need a new barrel. This is encouraging, so no real need to increase the throat as far as you did is what I’m getting at (on a new 284 barrel)

 

[Ladd]

Correct, I know I need a new barrel. This is encouraging, so no real need to increase the throat as far as you did is what I’m getting at (on a new 284 barrel)

OK. Cool. You could shoot the Berger 190 gr LRHT in a SAAMI chamber. Or lengthening the throat you could optimize the bullet and get the most with it. Good luck. I really like the velocity and energy I'm getting with it in mine.

 

[Quest1000]

Have you thought about loading at .010 OL and let the throat wear into the sweet spot? Or will you adjust to the barrel wear as round count increases?

 

[Ladd]

Have you thought about loading at .010 OL and let the throat wear into the sweet spot? Or will you adjust to the barrel wear as round count increases?

I don't plan to shoot this rifle much and I have a pretty good load as is so I'll keep it here. Some day, way down the road I'll just adjust the seating depth to account for the wear. I figured a little when I extended the throat.

 

[Quest1000]

That’s kind of what I was thinking. Thanks for the info.

 

[Airborneescouter]

Great stuff - thank you very much Ladd. No need to stay saami as I will obviously handload for optimizing ballistics but maybe starting the throat at a point where my coal is no greater than 3.5-3.55” would allow me to work within the confines of my AICS mag and grow into the barrel over time. By the way, great write up and appreciate all the detail. Hopefully I’ll be able to share a similar experience when everything gets put together

 

[jonthomps]

First time post here. Long time member on LRH. Great thread. I have a 7 rem mag at my smith. 8 twist barrel. I'm going to give it a long freebore to shoot the heavies. Any updates on this combo?

 

[Ladd]

First time post here. Long time member on LRH. Great thread. I have a 7 rem mag at my smith. 8 twist barrel. I'm going to give it a long freebore to shoot the heavies. Any updates on this combo?

It shoots very well and handles the Berger 190 gr LRHTs like they are 168s. I was going to take it to 1000 yards soon and test the load at distance. Too many other irons in the fire at the moment but I want to get back to this. I think this combo will be awesome for a mule deer. There’s a big buck in Idaho that won’t get away this year.

 

[jonthomps]

I’ve read that the 190’s have good terminal performance despite the small meplat. Post pictures of the buck when you sack him!!

 

[jackdesert]

This thread is what I wish I would have found a couple months ago, the 190 hasn't been widely talked about, as I guess people assume it's too heavy for the 7 rem mag. RL26 and 33 made amazing velocity with pretty obvious plunger marks but no increased bolt lift (except at the very top with RL26), click, or flattening of primers.

I'm probably going to go with RL26 at 68.3

 

[Ladd]

This thread is what I wish I would have found a couple months ago, the 190 hasn't been widely talked about, as I guess people assume it's too heavy for the 7 rem mag. RL26 and 33 made amazing velocity with pretty obvious plunger marks but no increased bolt lift (except at the very top with RL26), click, or flattening of primers.

I'm probably going to go with RL26 at 68.3
View attachment 7378

Nice. The 7mm isn’t just a pretty face. It can shoot the 190s with gusto, with it properly throated. And, the mag box can handle the longer bullets. No problem feeding.

 

[jonthomps]

This thread is what I wish I would have found a couple months ago, the 190 hasn't been widely talked about, as I guess people assume it's too heavy for the 7 rem mag. RL26 and 33 made amazing velocity with pretty obvious plunger marks but no increased bolt lift (except at the very top with RL26), click, or flattening of primers.

I'm probably going to go with RL26 at 68.3
View attachment 7378

Great bar graph. Those 190’s are cookin’! Even at a velocity of 3k those are impressive ballistics. The more I read about the 7 mag/190 combo the more impatient I get with my smith, lol.
On Berger’s site they say that the 195 EOL has a slightly shorter bearing surface than the 190. Hopefully the 195 will do what the 190’s are doing.

 

[Shadow292]

The H1000 loads shot Saturday were a little too close to pressure with a click at the top of the bolt throw. So it needs to come down from 68.9 gr. I did load up a 68.0 gr load at 0.005” OL to test and it grouped well and without a click at the top of the bolt throw. I can either explore around here or run with the N565 load. I think I’ll run with the following load and call it good at 100 yards and with OCW.

7mm 190 gr LRHT
68.2 gr N565
0.015” OL
3025 fps ave MV
2.4 SD, 5 ES (3-shots)


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I too throated a Mesa Longrange to these same specs for 190 bergers.
However I haven't been able to get my hands on N565 so I kept using the Magpro I used prior to the throating.
The bolt lift occurred at a velocity of 2940 and a comfortable load was at 2870 which is nowhere near the incredible speeds you've achieved with N565.
I would have been satisfied with high 2800s except after throating it I started to immediately get a severe carbon ring.
I'm curious if you've dealt with any heavy carbon fouling during your workup with either powders.
And if you have any advice for my situation aside from just changing powders.
Like increased seating depth or increased neck tension.
Currently neck sizing Norma brass with .309 redding neck bushing.
Thankyou for the extensive data you've provided. 🇺🇸

 

[Ladd]

I too throated a Mesa Longrange to these same specs for 190 bergers.
However I haven't been able to get my hands on N565 so I kept using the Magpro I used prior to the throating.
The bolt lift occurred at a velocity of 2940 and a comfortable load was at 2870 which is nowhere near the incredible speeds you've achieved with N565.
I would have been satisfied with high 2800s except after throating it I started to immediately get a severe carbon ring.
I'm curious if you've dealt with any heavy carbon fouling during your workup with either powders.
And if you have any advice for my situation aside from just changing powders.
Like increased seating depth or increased neck tension.
Currently neck sizing Norma brass with .309 redding neck bushing.
Thankyou for the extensive data you've provided. 🇺🇸

I have dealt with a carbon ring with N565 in a 6.5 PRC and one in a 30-338 Lapua Imp with N570 and one in a 6.5 max with RL33. One common denominator with a carbon ring is to clean the barrel more often and double check with a borescope. I don't have any other wisdom with regard to carbon rings. I also track the number of shots in between so I know when to watch for one.

I have no experience with Magpro so I cannot comment on it. N565 worked out well for me in my rifle. I would also consider H1000, RL26 and N570.

 

[Shadow292]

I have dealt with a carbon ring with N565 in a 6.5 PRC and one in a 30-338 Lapua Imp with N570 and one in a 6.5 max with RL33. One common denominator with a carbon ring is to clean the barrel more often and double check with a borescope. I don't have any other wisdom with regard to carbon rings. I also track the number of shots in between so I know when to watch for one.

I have no experience with Magpro so I cannot comment on it. N565 worked out well for me in my rifle. I would also consider H1000, RL26 and N570.

But no carbon issues in your throated 7 mag with the N565?
Thankyou for getting back too btw

 

[Ladd]

But no carbon issues in your throated 7 mag with the N565?
Thankyou for getting back too btw

No. I never had any issues in my 7 RM.

 

[Ladd]

But no carbon issues in your throated 7 mag with the N565?
Thankyou for getting back too btw

N565 worked very well in my 7 RM with the extended throat. The load I have with the 190s is pretty good in this Christensen Arms Ridgeline. I would hesitate to do it again. I hope it works out for your. N565 has been showing itself around lately. I wouldn't be surprised if you found some soon. I should stick with my original thought and use N565 in my 7 max. This conversation may be the tipping point calming my brain.

 

[RBanta66]

N565 worked very well in my 7 RM with the extended throat. The load I have with the 190s is pretty good in this Christensen Arms Ridgeline. I would hesitate to do it again. I hope it works out for your. N565 has been showing itself around lately. I wouldn't be surprised if you found some soon. I should stick with my original thought and use N565 in my 7 max.

I was able to find some yesterday and picked up 2lbs as that is the limit, primarily because of the success you've had with it.

Ladd how would you compare N565 to RL-26? I know you've used both but have you used both in your 7mm? RL-26 has worked very well for me but I've never tried N565 so I thought it was about time.

 

[Ladd]

I have not tried RL26 in my 7 RM. I have a load with RL26 in one 6.5 PRC and N565 in another 6.5 PRC and in these 6.5 PRCs I have found them to be similar with the velocity in one load at 3003 fps and the load in the other at 3009 fps. Both the same length barrel. I'd have to go back to my notes to see which pressured out sooner but as far as a load goes, I see them equal in the 6.5 PRC.